Welcome welcome esteemed readers, to Week 13 of Reading the Wheel of Time. Today we’re going to cover Chapters 37 and 38 of The Eye of the World, one from Nynaeve’s POV and one from Perrin’s, and it’s a really fun little adventure rescuing Perrin and Egwene from the Whitecloaks. I have definitely been wondering how they were going to get away when they were so outnumbered, turns out it’s through Aes Sedai and Warder heroics and some good old fashioned sneaking from Nynaeve.
Chapter 37 opens with Nynaeve in her usual miffed mood, sulking because she’s been left to look after the horses while Moiraine and Lan scout ahead. She thinks back on their journey out of Whitebridge, how Moiraine finally decided to go after the one boy who still had his coin, repeating her mantra of “as the Wheel weaves” as they left the road and struck out cross country. At one point, while they were camping, Moiraine suddenly stood up, announcing that the boy had lost his coin. But later in the night he apparently regained it, and she tells Nynaeve that all will be well, although the Wisdom has trouble believing it.
She is startled from her memories by Lan’s hand appearing suddenly on her arm; his cloak blends in so well with the night that she didn’t even realize he was there. He tells Nynaeve that she is needed, and they hobble the horses so that she can follow him to where Moiraine is waiting. Lan shows her the Whitecloak camp below, and tells her that the boy with the coin is in the camp and a prisoner, although Lan doesn’t know why. Although Nynaeve is half under the impression that Lan could probably walk right into the camp and take the boy out from under the noses of 200 Whitecloaks, he tells Nynaeve that they need her help, and asks her to sneak into the camp and cut the tethers on the horses so that the Whitecloaks can’t chase them when they realize that their prisoner is missing. Nynaeve agrees, teasing Lan as he warns her of wolves in the area, and Moiraine instructs her to be careful, saying that Nynaeve is also part of the Pattern and that Moiraine would not risk her any more than is necessary.
Nynaeve sneaks into the camp, unimpressed by the guards along its borders, who march around but never really look to one side or the other. Approaching the picket lines of horses, however, Nynaeve grows nervous, knowing that the guards will come to check any noises from the sleeping animals. Her attempt to cut almost through the first tether (so that they will hold until any pressure is exerted on them) is made especially nerve-wracking by the lead horse waking up and looking at her, but she succeeds in her mission and moves onto the next line.
On the fourth line, however, she accidentally cuts herself and makes a small sound. Not sure if the guards could have heard her, she feels that the smart thing to do would be to leave; four out of every five horses running loose would be enough to keep the Whitecloaks from chasing them. Still, she thinks of Lan, and although she imagines that he would not judge her, that he would understand and agree with her logic, picturing his expression drives her to move to the last picket line, where, to her immense surprise, she finds Bela tethered.
Nynaeve realizes in an instant what this means, that Egwene is also in the camp, and that they will need more horses to escape the Whitecloaks safely. She carefully cuts the rope, then unties Bela from the group and also the horse directly behind her. The horses are happy to let her take them, but Nynaeve fears that she will be seen from the nearby tents, and desperately hopes that Moiraine will make her distraction happen immediately, rather than wait for Nynaeve to return. In that same instant, lightning begins striking in the camp, terrifying the horses, who easily break from the sliced ropes and scatter. Nynaeve is only barely able to keep hold of Bela and the other horse, but she gets onto Bela as more lightning strikes around her, and wolves dart into the camp, attacking the other horses although they seem to be ignoring Nynaeve and her mounts. She wonders desperately what Moiraine is doing with them as she puts her heels to Bela’s flanks and rides.
Flashing back a bit, Chapter 38 finds Perrin and Egwene suffering in their captivity, forced to walk behind horses with their hands bound, sleeping on the ground without blankets or shelter, and tormented by Byar, who continually comes to tell them about the fate that awaits them at the hands of the Questioners. As far as Perrin can tell, Byar doesn’t seem to have much of an emotional investment in whether or not Egwene and Perrin were tortured or killed, but was just reciting the simple truth, and that is what terrifies Perrin the most. This particular night, thoughts of the tortures Byar has been describing are keeping Perrin awake despite his exhaustion.
Which means that he is awake when Byar comes over to check this bonds, handling Perrin roughly. Perrin wakes Egwene up before Byar can find a more uncomfortable way of doing it, and he checks her bonds as well. But then, instead of either leaving or talking to them more about their upcoming torture, Byar begins to tell Perrin that Captain Bornhald is in a bind. The Council of the Whitecloaks wants to know more about the wolves, so Bornhald must bring Perrin and Egwene to be questioned. But because of the wolves they are low on horses, and cannot travel as fast as they would like with Egwene and Perrin on foot. This means being late for a rendezvous in Caemlyn, which they cannot afford.
Perrin doesn’t understand what Byar is driving at until Byar pulls a stone with a sharp edge from under his cloak and leaves it on the ground. He suggests that both he and their guards “speculate” that if Perrin and Egwene were to cut their bonds on a sharp stone and escape, the Whitecloaks wound not have time to search for them, and the problem of time would be solved.
Perrin desperately tries to decide whether it can actually be true that Byar, of all people, would want them to escape. It occurs to him that it is far more likely that Byar wants them to be killed while trying to escape, but before he can decide how to get out of his predicament, a message comes to him from the wolves that help is coming.
Perrin is so surprised and pleased that at least Dapple and Elyas are still alive that Byar notices the expression on his face. But before he can extract an explanation, one of the nearby guards is taken out by a shadow, and then the other. Byar tries to defend himself with Perrin’s axe, which he has been carrying since it was confiscated from Perrin, but Lan appears out of the darkness and avoids the attack easily, knocking Byar out with his fists. He puts out the lantern, plunging the three of them in darkness, and quickly frees Perrin and Egwene.
He has Perrin collect the cloaks of the unconscious men, and Perrin finds it difficult to touch Byar, although he does as he’s told and collects both the three cloaks and his axe. The three dress in the cloaks, and Perrin feels a prickle of fear when he puts his on, wondering if it is Byar’s. He almost believes he can smell him. When Moiraine’s lightning strikes they are able to run from the camp with ease as horses and men panic around them, their white cloaks disguising them as they disappear into the night.
They reach Moiraine easily, who informs them that Nynaeve is not back yet. Lan turns to go back for her, but Moiriaine stops him, telling him that some things are more important than others. When Lan still hesitates to obey her, she reminds him; “Remember your oaths, al’Lan Mandragoran, Lord of the Seven Towers! What of the oath of a Diademed Battle Lord of the Malkieri?”
Perrin is puzzled by the titles but the whole thing is interrupted by Nynaeve arriving with Bela and the other stolen horse, and Moiraine gets them all moving. Perrin feels the wolves grow distant, Dapple promising that they will meet again one day.
When they make camp, Nynaeve uses her ointments to tend to Perrin and Egwene’s injuries. She’s horrified by the bruises on Perrin’s ribs from Byar’s constant kicks, but when she applies the ointment the bruises disappear almost entirely, and she seems scared for a reason Perrin can’t understand. But that’s quickly forgotten when Nynaeve gets a look at his eyes and sees that they’re yellow. Nynaeve is afraid he is sick but Moiraine examines him and merely says that there was no foretelling this happening. Despite Nynaeve demanding to know what it is, neither Moiraine nor Lan choose to explain. Lan does ask privately if Perrin met a guide, and he recognizes Elyas’s name, explaining that Elyas used to be a Warder. When Perrin asks if Lan believes that the wolf ability is part of the Shadow, Lan says he doesn’t think so, but who can know for sure. He suggests that the old barriers are weakening, maybe even the walls of the Dark One’s prison, and that they may be facing the end of an Age, or even the end of the world. But he promises Perrin that they will fight together until the last breath, and that the Two Rivers folk are too stubborn to surrender. Perrin is hardly comforted by that, but Lan also reminds him that he is back among friends, and that Moiraine’s presence protects him. But they must find the others soon, as they have no Aes Sedai touching the true source to protect them.
* * *
I totally forgot that Captain Bornhald gave Egwene and Perrin back their possessions (minus the weapons). It actually seems a weird choice now, given how they keep their prisoners, tying them up by halters around their necks and making them walk behind the horses. Perhaps this was merely a necessity, since the wolves took so many of the Whitecloak’s mounts, but the lack of basic human consideration seems in line with the treatment Perrin and Egwene experience, left to sleep without shelter or blankets, handled roughly, etc. I’m sure Byar’s nightly harassment wasn’t ordered by Bornhald or anything, but I am equally sure that he doesn’t care if Byar is doing it. Makes all that talk at the end of the interrogation about Egwene having time to repent seem pretty pointless. Then again, maybe all Bornhald meant was that she could repent at the hands of the Questioners.
I actually was surprised by Perrin’s reading of Byar in this Chapter. He seems to think that because Byar appears emotionless while dealing with him and Egwene, that he doesn’t care one way or the other if they are tortured or killed, and I really don’t think that is true. Rather, I suspect that this is Byar’s new approach to handling his extreme dislike of Darkfriends and of Perrin in particular; treat it like an emotionless exercise while being unnecessarily rough and cruel at every opportunity. Nightly lectures on what torture is upcoming doesn’t really seem like the choice of someone who doesn’t care one way or another, and it’s not like he’s trying to get confession or some kind of conversion out of them.
Perrin’s reaction to touching Byar’s unconscious form and wearing his cloak is interesting too. On first read, I interpreted that as little more than a basic traumatized reaction from everything Byar has put him through, but on a second read I realized that this is probably his heightened wolf senses working; he thinks more than once that he can smell Byar on the cloak, and it reminded me of Dapple communicating to him that the Children smelled wrong, like “the way a rabid dog smells wrong.” There is something deeply broken in Byar, something that is different than Bornhald’s more measured conviction, or even the bland, inattentive guards that Nynaeve found it so easy to sneak past. I am sure this isn’t the last we’ve seen of Byar; I imagine he’ll be back to trouble Perrin in the future.
On a lighter note, is there a little something brewing between Nynaeve and Lan? I know he’s noble, and both values and serves women with the Power, but there was something about the way he wanted to go back for her, hesitating even when Moiraine gave him a direct order. And when Nynaeve reappears, Lan grabs her arm and they stare at each other, and he needs Moiraine’s reminding to let her go. Meanwhile Nynaeve’s chuckling about it. Perhaps I’m reading too much into the moment, but their banter also seems to have a different flavor to it; like in the top of the chapter when he is explain that wolves don’t usually bother people, and Nynaeve tells him “sweetly” that of course she didn’t know that, she only grew up around shepherds. She’s still spitting barbs at Moiraine but her one-upmanship game with Lan is starting to feel more like banter than anger.
I really enjoyed the excitement of these chapters; because the action is self-contained, it really moves, and it’s interesting to see the characters’ different skills at work. Nynaeve’s sneaking abilities are quite impressive! And I was interested to see her realization that it was her power that told her that if they didn’t have enough horses the Whitecloaks would catch them, and if they caught up to them, some of them would die. “She was as certain as if she were listening to the wind.” Nynaeve wishes angrily that Moiraine hadn’t told her about her gift, but now that she has been told, she knows the truth. It makes me wonder what would have happened if Moiraine hadn’t said anything; are Nynaeve’s abilities getting stronger now that she knows about them, or would she have had the same instinct anyway, and just not known where it came from?
The idea of having a guide in one’s power is already well established in this world. Nynaeve is one of the lucky female channelers who figured out how to control her ability on her own, without even knowing she was doing so. But others, as Moiraine explained back in Chapter 21, cannot learn to control their channeling without help, to the point where it will kill them if they do not have a teacher. This is Moiraine’s fear for Egwene, which she told Nynaeve, but meanwhile Perrin’s discussion with Lan in this chapter is taking a slightly similar tone. While Perrin’s life isn’t in danger from his wolfbrother abilities, Lan asks if Perrin’s change just came to him, or if he “met a guide, an intermediary”. So while Perrin could have discovered his connection to wolves on his own, this suggests that having a guide in the learning the skill is more common.
And how thematically interesting to have Elyas be the one-time teacher of Lan and then to have taught Perrin in a very different manner. It makes me think that the Pattern is taking a hand in directing their lives, leading Perrin to Elyas on purpose. And knowing that Elyas was a Warder really changes the small bit of information Elyas gave Perrin and Egwene about himself, how he doesn’t like Aes Sedai, how the Red Ajah wanted to “gentle” him (which as I understand it is something they do to men who have the One Power) and how he told them that they served the Dark One. Or how he mentioned how he had to kill several Warders to escape, though he didn’t like that. What a different story if he was once part of their world, if these were friends who were turning on him. Was Elyas once as loyal as Lan? Did he have an Aes Sedai he served like Lan serves Moiraine? That appears to be a very deep connection, possibly enhanced in some way by the One Power, and seems like it would be a very difficult thing to break.
And how about that connection between Moiraine and Nynaeve? I wasn’t sure if it was just Moiraine’s abilities that allowed her to know that Nynaeve wanted the distraction at precisely the right moment or if it was a specific communication between the two of them as channelers, but I’m leaning towards the later. I know Nynaeve has a lot of disdain for Moiraine as someone who represents all of her fears and her lack of knowledge about what is happening to her, but it seems like sooner or later, Nynaeve is going to come around to accepting her abilities, and then they will be colleagues at least. Possibly even friends?
Seems like everyone in these books could use as many friends as they can get.
Next week is we go back to Rand again to cover Chapters 39-41 and that young man is getting himself into even more trouble than when he climbed the mast on the Spray. As a general rule, Rand should probably keep his feet on the ground, seems like every time he gets up high he winds up in a whole heap of trouble.
Sylas K Barrett would very much like a pack of wolf friends. But he has a beagle friend named Archer, which is pretty cool too.
Oh, reading this blog goes by far too fast after waiting a week for it! Thanks again, Sylas.
I am sitting here laughing audibly at your astute observations. Bravo. One thing I will say, although it borders on spoiler-dom, is that you should check your hesitations about your instincts at the door! You are uncanny!!
I have always wanted to know more of Elyas back ground. We only get a small taste of who he is or was! If he was a Warder, did the connection with the wolves surplant his bond to his Aes Sedai, or can he mask the bond a different way?
Beagle! Is he named after Captain Archer? I don’t imagine communicating with a beagle would be very useful though. Food! Other Food! New Food? SCENT! SCENT! SCENT!
Your reads never fail to be amusing.
Personally, I’m of the opinion that Nynaeve struck the first lightning bolt and that Moirane, being able to actually understand what it was that Nynaeve did, followed up with more lightning. The text leaves it unclear, but the whole way Nynaeve was feeling right before the first bolt, with there being a pause before the second (and subsequent bolts falling like clockwork), makes me think she did it and Moirane was surprised by it.
(Didn’t spoiler tag it since the text in this chapter is the only information we have on it. It’s more speculation than spoiler.)
Does anyone read Byar letting them go as wanting to kill them in an escape attempt? I can never really get a read on that. He seems straight forward but I don’t think he would really let “Darkfriends” go.
@5 – Oh, he most definitely wants to kill them in the attempt. At least, I never got any other impression from that scene.
Ah “the connection” between Warders and Aes Sedai… I’m excited to see what you think of all the things we’ll learn about that. Jordan does a lot of interesting things with it, some of which give me the creepy crawlies.
Enjoying your comments and analysis as you encounter this material for the first time. For me it was sometime back in the 90’s when I read it last so it’s a welcome revisit. Your observations, as others have noted, are spot on. Keep trusting your instincts.
Nynaeve is my very favorite. For someone who tends to be loud and bossy, I read her as a very insecure person. She totally closes down when she feels threatened, and can’t connect to anyone at all unless she feels respected by them. I like that you’ve picked up on the growing respect between her and Lan. I think that grows very organically through the first book and it feels very realistic. He is one of the only people who treats her with genuine respect from their first interaction, and as a consequence she relates to him so differently than anyone else.
Here’s once again RJs deft touch with 3rd limited.
There are things that these POVs (Nynaeve & Perrin) notice and experience that Rand (our principal POV in this book) misses altogether. You hit on a thing in your analysis that some readers says lack some forshadowing but in fact is caused by that we in large view the story from Rands eyes (and he is as sensitive as a brick). Since we mainly see the story unfold from his POV we also miss those hints in those parts of the book.
I read this as simple expediency. After their casualties and loss of remounts/pack animals, it’s easier for the CotL to have the prisoners carry their own possessions as much as is safe. After all, the Questioners will probably want to examine their stuff very closely for signs of their corruption (which they might well invent or tweak if they don’t find anything that they can simply misinterpret).
This might not be as simple of a question as one might think. [spoilers] I see it as asked out of concern, as the risks of becoming a Wolfbrother are higher if you have no guide; the temptation to lose yourself and embrace the wolf entirely to the exclusion of your humanity is much stronger without another Wolfbrother to act as a guide and to provide an example of how to retain the fullness of your humanity while still accepting your abilities.[/spoilers]
@@@@@: All Warders can mask the bond. Not just Elyas. We learn about this in detail later on from Lan, in connection with him having sex with Nynaeve while still bonded to Myrella. Nynaeve decides she doesn’t WANT him to mask the bond, lol. She wants her to know what’s going on!
@11:
Your spoiler in itself is a continuity error on RJs part. We find out later that Elyas is the only Wolfbrother the Aes Sedai have ever heard of, and that records of them are from myths that predate the Age of Legends. It isn’t until TDR, when Perrin encounters Noah, that we find out how dangerous it is without a guide. After all, Elyas didn’t have a guide.
As usual, a highly perceptive breakdown!
Maybe someone with a martial arts background can help me more here, how hard is it to deliver a beating like what is described on Perrin? I mean, I’ve played sports and I have to get really smacked to get a bruise that colors up like all of his are described as. Doesn’t seem like that would happen from casual kickings and smackings. Byar would really have to wind up each time to make those bruises.
Also, how intelligent are the wolves here?! Figure out the Aes Sedai’s plan, figure out how to help, send the message at the right time. And they had to have been trailing the Whitecloaks the entire way since Perrin was captured. Loyal, intelligent, scary compadres.
@12 Anthony, Are we certain that Warders can fuzz the bond? I thought we learned that sisters can do so, but not warders. In fact, I think we learned that bonded people who are not channellers (see, Min during the Rand and Elayne Do The Horizontal Polka scene) cannot do so either. I had thought that “fuzzing” the bond was a function of the Power, not inherent with the bond.
-Beren (no, I’m not back. Not really)
@15 // The only examples I can think of non-fuzzing are Min, Avi, and Elayne and Birgitte. None of them have the typical warder bond. //
Another great post, Sylas. I love your observations on Nynaeve and Lan; their interactions continue to be wonderful to read throughout the book. I often feel like Jordan struggles to show slowly growing affection (he often seems to jump right to madly in love – see Elayne & Rand, Min & Rand, Faile & Perrin, Egwene & Gawyn) but reading their interactions in this book always puts a smile on my face.
@@@@@ 2 – We see a little tiny glimpse of Eylas when he was still a happy warder in the prequel New Spring; he is bonded to a green sister, Rina. I was also under the impression, like Anthony, that anyone can fuzz the bond and that Min’s failure was not related to not using the One Power. I thought it was a mental trick similar to ignoring the heat/cold or accessing the Void; it comes more easily to channelers because of their training in learning to control the One Power, but being a channeler is not required.
@15: You may be right about that. I checked the relevant passage I had mentioned and realized that the hilarity of the situation was Nynaeve wanting to make sure Myrelle knew it was her. So, no, I’m not sure.
@18:
Do an age check on the people you mentioned, and then look at the ages of Nynaeve and Lan. I don’t think that’s RJ doing it “badly.” I think that’s RJ making a comment on young love. Lord knows when I was 16-20 I fell in love at the drop of a hat. And these are also characters that are outside of their small village for the first time (or in Elayne’s case her mother’s palace.) These aren’t worldly, experienced people. They are people who only know love based on story books. They are also, most of them, in crisis mode, and its quite natural to imprint yourself on someone who you go through difficult times with, and it doesn’t take much more than a moment. If that other person happens to be the same age as you, and you find them attractive…
I found the combination quite believable. And if it isn’t that way for the entire population of 16-20 year olds, its true for enough of them that it never bothered me.
Possibly. We do find out more about him later, so RAFO.
That’s kind of the definition of being a Warder.
Oh boy! you have no idea. RAFO
As to others talking about the Warders: //Warders cannot “mask” the bond. We so zero mentions or even hints that they can do so. That would defeat the purpose of the bond if they could do so, only Aes Sedai can do this, and then the bond holder must be able to channel to do so, as demonstrated by Min.//
It was merely fortuitous timing. They don’t have a “connection” other than being able to sense the presence of another woman who can channel (And Nyneave has not mastered that ability yet). Oh, and good eye on the Lan/Nyneave stuff.
I agree that RJ is not great at romances, considering all the “insta-love” that happens. (And let’s not get into the creepiness of the non-free will aspect of the story). But, IMO, RJ did one romance really well. It’s hands down the best. And I’m talking about, of course, //Rand and Avidenha. The way she kept trying to deny her feelings and his clumsy, unconscious pursuit of her. And the fact that it took 2 books for it to culminate. I really like that part of books 4-5.//
//The right timing of the lightning was probably caused by Perrin’s ta’veren pull.//
Bornhald gives back their belongings because “he isn’t a thief”. The Whitecloaks see themselves as the good guys, even if their rigid views don’t seem so great for their victims.
Sylas – for entertainment value, I recommend you take a look back at the Lan-Nyneaeve interactions that have taken place in EOTW to date, in light of your current perception that there is a “little something” between them at this point in the story. Fun times.
Nice summary and analysis, as always.
By the way, really good choice on the chapters for next week. You’ll want to read all three together as a unit. Looking forward to it.
Like I said, Lan admires competent women. Nynaeve is very competent. Lan is strong and mysterious which is intriguing and Nynaeve realizes she’s won his respect without trying and wants to keep it. At this point I think that’s all that’s going on. For now.
I always thought it was sheer luck that Nynaeve was done with the ropes just before Moiraine started weaving lightning. I suppose Moiraine might have used the Power somehow to know when Nynaeve was done, but in that case it would seem odd that she didn’t know what Nynaeve was doing later when Lan returned with Perrin and Egwene.
Note also that Moiraine had to wait until Lan was done with his part. If Nynaeve had been faster, then Moiraine still couldn’t have started the lightning show before Perrin and Egwene were free and dressed in white cloaks. If Mehndeke (#4) is right that Nynaeve made the first lightning bolt, then it was sheer luck that Lan was ready when she did so. (But of course sheer luck can be very helpful when a ta’veren is involved.)
I’d like to point out another little detail: Perrin muses that Nynaeve’s ointments sometimes work quickly and sometimes slowly. When they work quickly it’s of course Nynaeve using the Power without knowing it, and Perrin seems to be quite used to it.
@27 – Speaking of healing, //why doesn’t Perrin shake uncontrollably from the healing? Just another example of RJ not quite pinning everything down yet?//
Nynaeve knowing they needed more horses didn’t have anything to do with the One Power, though I can see how you might read it that way. The bit about being certain as if she were listening to the wind is just a segue into another opportunity to show her fear/angst at being informed she could channel.
@28:
Keep watching as Nynaeve heals others later in the story. You’ll notice that her healings don’t affect others the way Moiraine’s do. Because she uses different weaves, not the standard battlefield healing that other Aes Sedai use. When Nynaeve is in Salidar, they go into that some. Nynaeve’s Healings don’t use anywhere near as much of the strength of the person being Healed as standard Third Age AS healing weaves do.
@29:
I agree in fact with what you are saying, but disagree in principle. Yes, Nynaeve can count, therefore she knew they needed more horses, but the part about knowing someone would die, and being certain of it as she is of listening to the wind is most definitely a foreshadowing of Nynaeve’s Spidey senses that come in to play all throughout the story. Those are directly related to her power. Its a Gift of hers, like Egwene’s gift with Dreaming. She has a limited ability to “see” the future.
@5
That’s the overwhelming impression I got from all that. Bornhold’s stance was “We have some likely Darkfriends, so we’ll take them back and let our laws sort them out.”, while Byar took the more pragmatic “We’re not meeting our schedule because of you and that’s bad. Besides, I KNOW you’re evil, so we’ll just set up a little ‘you try to escape, I valiantly slay you’ scenario and it’s a win/win for us!”
@austin (#28), in addition to Anthony Pero’s (#30) observations, this was just bruises. Many large bruises, yes, but nothing like a life-threatening wound. Being healed a little takes only a little of one’s strength.
Prepare to ship Lan and Nynaeve so hard!
Ah some fascinating insights.
Interesting what people are saying as a guide //Perrin’s true guide is hopper so when Lan is asking him if he has a guide. I never saw it as a continuity that RJ later decides to only have one wolfbrother (discounting Noam that is) so Elyas has no guide. I always imagined them having a chat working forms where Elyas tells Lan he has a guide he may have been non specific as to his guide not being human. I think Perrin misunderstands who/what his guide is. Elyas does nothing for him in terms of teaching him to communicate other than tell him in the first place. His guide is Hopper he just doesn’t realise it yet//
@35:
I haven’t thought of it in those terms, but I totally buy what you’re selling.
@Yonni (7) some of the things we see done with or as the result of the Warder Bond are horrific, others mildly concerning, and more still are utterly hilarious! // I can’t wait till we get to Birgitte’s bonding: it’s such a great story, with the horror of losing her memories of Gaidal, and the humour of her reaction to Elayne’s activites! Dragging Andoran soldiers around as a distraction/revenge //
@tbgh (14) This isn’t a case of sports related injuries, and even a hefty game of rugby or hockey, etc. cannot be used as a comparison. Going into a game like that, you are fit, healthy, well fed and normally well rested, and a game will generally last a couple of hours at most. By contrast, Perrin is malnourished and exhausted and subject to persistent and repetitive assault over a long period. His bruising is not a few bruises here or there, it is heavily layered and overlapping bruising; in short torture. I’ve seen the results of this kind of injury first hand, as the result of domestic abuse, and it is truly horrific.
As for the wolves, yes they are intelligent, but not quite in the way we are. They may be able to tell Nynaeve and Moiraine are Aes Sedai, but more, I think this is the wolves doing what they do best. Harrying an enemy, using the shadows and their speed to fight. But yes, I get that they are more than capable of intuiting the good guys from the bad.
@anthony Pero (20) … of the same age … or perhaps not. I do agree that this jumping-in head first love is very much a young love as opposed to a more mature love. // The way he writes Lanaeve is much more subtle and mature, as well Thom and Moiraine’s slow dance. Even Morgase’s shows this in her relationship with Tallanvor, though you can’t really say he didn’t jump in feet first there, and I think I remember her chiding herself over her behaviour there too. //
@Stevros (35) I thinks you deserve a cookie for that analysis! // I wonder if Hopper was also Elyas’ guide? Or perhaps Dapple, or both? It might explain why he is part of their pack. And it is totally the pattern setting the dominoes up for Perrin. //.
Nyneave is one of my favorite characters to watch as the series goes on. I won’t say more for fear of spoilers, but I may have nearly cackled at some of this :)
In the beginning he had not believed Byar either. He still did not want to; people just did not do things like that to other people.
Oh, Perrin.
@38 Ohhh I like cookies!!!
Several thoughts so gonna try to organize them, also I’m on my phone so forgive.
RE: Bornhold giving Perrin and Egwene their stuff back, I always read it as a converging of expediency, rigid adherence to rules, “politics,” and manipulation. Expexiency because it keeps the CotL from having to do it. While they didn’t have much, it probably would have had to be inventoried and accounted for for the Questioners. Because the Children just srike me an analy legalistic that way. Rigid Adherence to the Rules, as we see from his rebuke to Byar. Bornhold clearly believes they are guilty, and they will obviously lose it all in Amador anyway, but the forms and civilities MUST e observed. This goes back to Bornhold’s personality and moral compass as we discussed previously, and that sense of Noblese Oblage I mentioned then. “Politics” because Bornhold is playing a long game here to advance the CotL’s agenda in Andor. The kids are going to Amador to be tried, and clearly everyone assumes they are guilty. But consider the subtle difference between “suspected Darkfriends captured” vs. “Suspected Darkfriends and Murderers of members of the Children carried Tar Valob coins.” This is how propaganda works, and Bornhold knows how to stick to a narrative and build the support for it with what he has on hand. And finally, the manipulation. We’re still playing Good/Bad Cop here. Bornhold wants a confession and conversion from Egwene and information about the running with wolves from Perrin letting them keep their belonging, till they reach Amador at least, reinforces the image of him as a reasonable, fair arbiter of justice whom they can trust to understand their situation if they choose to talk to him and repent. It literally costs him nothing while advancing the psychological narrative he’s constructing.
I dunno that I agree that Perrin is badly misreading Byar’s calmness. Byar always struck me as a sociopath. The person who probably killed and carved up kittens and puppies as a child. The only reason he hasn’t been hung as a murderer is because he found his way to the CotL where he has a “legitimate” focus for his attention. He really hates Perrin and Egwene, but where most people’s anger and hate is a hot, passionate thing; he just doesn’t see them as human people anymore. For him, executing the kids is nothing more than taking out the trash.
RE: whether or not Nynaeve’s Listening to the Wind is getting stronger or not, I always thought of this part of the book as an excellent of basic psycology. Naturally you would expect a talent to develop and get stronger with training and practice, but Nynaeve has not had the first and the second was only used to predict the weather. However, as soon as Moiriane explained that Listening to the Wind was really Reading the Pattern, Nynaeve began making the connection between it and the sense of foreboding and oppression she felt from the increase of The Dark One’s attention. Simply being actively aware of what you are doing can make you more aware of exactly what you are doing and what your potential abilities might be, and suddenly Nynaeve can read more than just the westher, because now she realizes that she could have all along.
RE: Elyas and the connection between a Warder and their Aes Sedai… Muahahahahaha. Your instincts are always good, and I’m SO looking forward to your horror, cringing, and gales of laughter as we explore that. I can’t wait for your discourse.
RE: the Lightning Diversion. I had never even considered that the initial strike could have been Nynaeve accidentally channeling, but it makes so much sense, Nynaeve is just BAMF enough to kick things into motion at just the right moment on her own. As for the comment about Nynaeve eventually accepting her abilities and becoming Moiroine’s collegue and maybe friend… and then everyone in the comments who has read the whole series just laughed, and laughed, and laughed. Cackled, in fact. Maniacally, one might even say.
I had completely forgotten about Elyas having been a Warder. Huh. That’s actually really interesting. I like him more now.
Regarding Lan and Nynaeve, //I didn’t pick up on any sort of romance in their interactions, even though I’m usually pretty good at noticing that stuff, until that conversation that Rand overhears towards the end where it’s made obvious. I guess there was a bit more foreshadowing than I initially gave Robert Jordan credit for.//
Lan is awesome. I didn’t really start appreciating him until TGH, but he’s competent and loyal and actually kind, and probably one of my favorite major side characters. (Major side characters because I absolutely adore many of the minor side characters.)
@gadget(#21)
Also [and we can finally talk about this since it was explained by Loial in Chapter 36] Perrin is in the same camp. So it’s also very likely to be “cause ta’veren”.
Which is a brilliant invention by Robert Jordan by the way. You know all those coincidences that allow the plot to happen in any fiction book / series ever? As long as any of our 3 boys are even tangentially involved, Jordan (and later Sanderson) has the perfect excuse explanation for it, and it makes sense within the setting — as in: we the readers can form a picture of what, approximately, is happening — to boot.
Note: message edited to white out potential spoilers.
Thank you to whom ever blocked out my spoiler @2 I was in such a hurry I just plain forgot!!
I just love the Nynaeve/ Lan interactions, She did track them when He covered their tracks in the beginning. She got lots of respect from him for that!
@43 I know we don’t spend a lot of time in Lan’s head, but I wouldn’t consider him a major side character. More of a minor main character.
John#43 brings to mind an interesting question: has anyone ever tried to categorize the characters by (say) “major,” “secondary,” “tertiary,” and “bit-player?” Or some other system? I guess it would be spoilery to do this too early, since many, MANY characters have yet to appear. I know that various websites have lists of the hundreds and hundreds of characters. (One of the more fascinating things about RJ the WOT is that there are almost NO duplications of names – compare with GRRM and ASOIAF where every third Targaryen is an Aegon or Aemon, and Brandon Starks are ubiquitous.)
About Lan: I’d probably not place him among the “top ten” characters, but he might make the top twenty. How many “major” characters can you have in a 15-book saga? Is it appropriate to have a different “major” list for each book?
I consider Lan a major character – of course I’ve only read the first five books – but his close association with Moiraine alone makes him a major player at least early on.
Moderators and/or @44:
//@44 has details we are not privy to yet. “Perrin is in the same camp. So it’s also very likely to be “cause ta’veren”.” should be whited out, as should “As long as any of our 3 boys are even tangentially involved”
We do not yet know that all 3 boys are ta’veren until Chapter 42.//
@47 Faculty Guy – Categorizing like that would be interesting but tricky, since people would have differing ideas of what each category meant and who would fit in it. It would be interesting to see what the results of some sort of voting system would be, though.
I was just quickly categorizing Lan as a side character mostly because of his lack of viewpoints, but a major side character since he’s certainly around a lot and does a bunch of stuff. I actually have a pretty narrow definition of “main” character, for WoT at least, only including //Rand, Perrin, Mat, Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve//, since at least by TFoH they seem to be the major viewpoint characters. Everyone else, for me, gets tossed into the “side character” bin, with varying levels of importance attached to them.
Trust, me its come to virtual blows in the past whenever we start trying to shove characters into boxes and labels, lol. For MY usage, Lan is definitely a side character. In fact, he’s the side kick to a side character. He doesn’t drive the plot or action in any way.
For Team Light, I personally consider the following to be main characters, and primary drivers of the story:
Rand, Perrin, Mat, Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne.
I consider the following to be major secondary characters:
Min, Aviehnda, Moiraine, Faile, Loial, Tuon.
Pretty much everyone else is a lesser secondary character or even a tertiary character. I base this not on screen time, or POVs, but on their function in the overarching story. Part of the weaknesses we run into in later books is how much time we end up spending with lesser secondary and even tertiary characters. If less time had been spent there, and more time spent moving the main plot threads forward, the waiting wouldn’t have seemed so bad.
As far as Team Dark goes, that’s difficult to ascertain for the series as a whole, as the key players frequently switch roles throughout the books, but obviously Moridin/Ishy is the primary antagonist, and a main character in his own right, while Lanfear, who functions in the contagonist/chaos role for much of the first half of the series, could also be considered a major character. Padan Fain operates as a major character early on, but the second half of the series he’s more of a loose thread that ultimately goes nowhere. So I put him as a secondary character, overall.
In my opinion, the main character is Verin ;) (Just kidding…kind of!)
Also, this is one of those super lame things, but I just realized that her name is possibly a play on Veritas/Truth. Hahaha I love it.
Not Really a spoiler, but there is another named character in this chapter that Sylas needs to start paying attention to. Thoase of us who have read, but we know that she is secretly the true main character of the story, so thankfully she was rescuded this week!
Ah yes, keep an eye on Bela, Sylas. She is a very important mare.
Everyone knows there is only one major character. //Bela is introduced in chapter 1 and plays a vital role in the last battle. Bela is either the true Dragon Reborn or the Creator, can’t make up my mind which//
In these first books there aren’t that many different POVs. Later on there are many more.
I checked the Wikia page on POVs for WoT.
Granted several of them just are parts of a chapter or in some cases just a few paragrafs long but I was still surprised on how many POVs it was. New readers shouldn’t be frightened by this. It’s a natural progression, but you may have to check the glossary from time to time when you read the last few books.
Here’s a URL to that page. http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Point_of_View_Characters
At a first glance I couldn’t see any direct spoilers, if you look very carefully you may glean some things that may be considered spoilery.Mostly it has to do with how long they survive in the series and people who add or change their names. Ex // Tuon, Nynaeve ti al’Maera Mandragoran, Padan Fain //.
Finally someone mentions the glossary! The way I read is to look up new terms when I run across them. If you look up Warder in the glossary, it describes in detail how the bond with Aes Sedai works. Are things from the glossary spoilery or not? I don’t think so, but the way these comments go they seem to treat them that way
I also agree that RJ is masterful in dropping/introducing things/people here in the first novel that reverberates through the ENTIRE series.
@60
Depends on your definition of spoiler, or your sensitivity level to same. Generally, the glossary at the end of each book is free of spoilers regarding the status of people and places. The glossary gives you the status of each person at the beginning of that book. I used it myself on my first read through while I was reading each book and did not consider myself spoiled. The one potential counterexample is the infamous “reveal” in book 13’s glossary //of the solution to a longstanding mystery. In actuality, those who read the full text of that book first would have found indisputable evidence of who did that particular whodunit, but it was something that could be (and was) easily missed by the most casual observer. And if you read the glossary before finishing the text of that book it would have been spoiled for sure.//
That said, the glossaries do give information about worldbuilding concepts that are revealed in the volume in which the glossary appears. So if you want to discover those concepts organically in the text, then you should wait until you finish the volume before touching the glossary for that volume.
As some above have said, I definitely read Byar’s trying to allow them to escape as an attempt to kill them. The rest of my post is whited out to avoid spoilers for Sylas: I always assumed that Byar was Graendal’s Whitecloack. She mentions having one at some point in the future, and in this passage Perrin says of Byar “for a change there was something besides disdain or hatred on his face, something intent and unreadable”. Upon reread, I read that as a side effect of a too-strong compulsion that perhaps told him to look out for and kill the 3 boys. If I remember correctly, Graendal says that she went too far with her compulsion on her Whitecloak.
//Is Graendal already free at this point?//
///I don’t think even Aginor and Balthamel are free yet and they were “too close to the outside” or something like that making them the first to be released (not counting Ishy). If he was under her too strong compulsion w orders to kill the boys.. I don’t think he’d be able to stay his hand and set up the escape attempt.
@@@@@ 64, 65 – Good points, guess that theory doesn’t work! I still think he wanted to kill them, though. / I suppose that insanity made him easy fodder when she was released; people wouldn’t think his intensity was anything strange. /
//I wondered if this had something to do with the whole “wrongness” smell of the Whitecloaks themselves if Byar was already compelled, but the timeline doesn’t fit with the Forsaken being free. I think the most likely explantion is that he was leaving Falme when he was first compelled.
Firstly because of his proximity to where Greandal was setting up.
Secondly He gets from Falme to Amador to Tar Valon faster than rumor travelled from Falme direct to Tar Valon most likely to my mind a bit of travelling there to do that . //
@63 thru 67:
I am at work and not able to fact-check my hypothesis, but // I always took Carridin for Graendal’s Whitecloak. He got rather reckless in his attempts to persuade Elayne to believe him about her mother. Although, that could have just been from the threats he was already under, IDK.//
@68 //Carridin is executed by Moridin in tPoD. From what Greandal says it has to be someone with Perrin after Slayer has failed who will try to take Perrin out. So pretty sure it’s Byar the question is more if he could be compelled by now//
@69 – so, that would be what I meant about not being able to fact-check!! I Haven’t read that portion of the story in a while and didn’t fully remember what else had been said about that person.
I’ve always thought the name the wolves have for Aes Sedai were really cool. // “The two-leg she’s who touch the wind that moves the sun and call fire”. // If that’s not evocative imagery I don’t know what is.
To Moderators:
I see my previous comment has been partially whited out, since apparently it contained “potential Spoilers”. I was thoroughly convinced those things were dealt with in Chapter 36, because Loial, and I said as much in that comment as you might notice — but I won’t argue with Moderators because that never works.
I do have a question though, that I would very much like the answer to: if it is thought that these things I talked about actually weren’t dealt with in Ch. 36 to a sufficient extent that they’d no longer be “potential Spoilers”, could any of you leave me a white-ed comment saying when (as in Chapter #) it will be 100% OK to talk about this subject in non-white? Because I honestly can’t figure it out at this point.
EDIT: I see fernandan at (#49) was the one that suggested it might be a Spoiler. I’ll white this out just so you guys won’t, but errgh: //I figured the fact that Loial stated that “[Rand’s] friends” were “probably ta’veren too” would be enough of a confirmation at this point. Apparently some Moderators and commenters disagree, but since I am confused and me being confused leads me to not understanding what’s a Spoiler and what isn’t, and when Spoilers stop being Spoilers; I would very much like to know why they disagree//
@fernandan(#62)
Seems we are at odds with each other twice this week! This usually doesn’t bode well for me, from experience, but maybe the fact that I can back this one up with hard facts will help with that:
The Glossary does actually Spoil more than just what’s contained in-text in that volume on rare occasions. One example is //in the glossary for The Eye of the World, the fact that the person who is prophesied to “unite the [Aiel] Clans and return them to the greatness they once knew during the Age of Legends” would be born from a Far Dareis Mai aka a Maiden of the Spear. This prophesy isn’t mentioned in-text until The Dragon Reborn. This would be in the ‘Far Dareis Mai” entry, by the way. Interestingly, I read the Dutch translation first, from which the part about a son of a Maiden (of the Spear) uniting the Clans was removed. Also, “son of a Maiden”…. just how obvious do you want to make the “Rand == Jesus” thing, Robert Jordan?//
@47: There are a surprising number of identical first names belonging to two or more characters — I once read through the extensive Encyclopedia WoT character list to count them, lacking the WoT Companion — but most if not all of those characters are minor. And there are many instances of very-similar-but-not-identical first names. Still, the duplicates are rather unrealistically rare for this cast of thousands. I don’t recall anyone with the same first and last names, but that’s partly because the series doesn’t focus much on a set of particular families the way ASOIAF does.
\\I can’t remember the scene in enough detail, since it’s been a while since my last read, but Nynaeve often uses her powers without realizing it. I wonder if she used her powers subconsiously renders the horse, that woke up, quite. Does anyone remember if there were any tell tales or if the horse just chose not to alert anyone?\\
@28 Austin, Perrin might not have shook, because \\Nynaeve is a wilder and is healing intuitively. Just like when she healed Logain. She doesn’t necessarily do things the way others do, so she could be healing and adding some element of fire to take that effect away. This is just pulling it out of my head and I could be wrong. He might not have had it pinned down, but if so he took care of it retroactively. Even is she did start healing in a manner that caused chills later, it could just be that she picked up a different way from seeing other Aes Sedai do it.\\
@30 Berthulf \\I doubt any of the current pack were Elyas’ guide. From what I gather, he has been on his own in the wild for years. I doubt any of the current pack was alive then. I never saw any evidence of longer lives in the wolves. I’d totally buy that one of the current pack’s grand parents or great grandparents were his guide and that he’s stayed with the pack for year.\\
@56 Kyle DeBlasio: Amen brother!
Jadis@72:
I would guess it is considered a spoiler more because its not confirmed in-text (Loial hasn’t even met them yet, after all), and because the OP didn’t even mention it, they probably didn’t catch it. I won’t speak for the whole site, or the Mods, but I’m interested in seeing when the OP catches things, and pointing it out in the comments that something was missed without whiting it out sort of defeats that a bit.
As far as why Perrin didn’t shudder, // It’s established that the healing modern AS use is the most basic “quick and dirty” healing. Moiraine mentions in book 4 that if a channeler is holding the power, the strength to heal can come from that. This implies that the energy to heal has to come from somewhere, but not necessarily the person being healed. In the white guide it states [In the Age of Legends] death from causes other than old age only occurred when the person was out of reach of an Aes Sedai restorer. I got the impression that Moiraine’s healing can be done by anyone with the requisite strength in the power, whereas Nynaeve actually has the Healing Talent. //
jadis666 @72
I’m with Anthony Pero @76 on the spoiler issue. This one isn’t a huge deal because it’s revealed very soon, but I do want Sylas to be able to experience and write about unspoiled reactions as much as possible. Sylas didn’t catch the “perhaps” reference you mentioned yet so I prefer to err on the side of whiting out to not clue him in.
@73 – you may be right about the glossary revealing some details not in the main text of each book. Again, I didn’t consider myself spoiled by those world building details when I read the glossary on my first read, even if that info didn’t specifically occur in the text of that book. But since the author saw fit to include it in the glossary at the end of the volume, at the very least it’s information the author wanted us to have at the end of book 1, if not before.
@jadis666 (#72): I don’t pretend to know what the moderators would say but these are my thoughts on the matter:
When Moiraine arrives to The Queen’s Blessing she confirms that the number of ta’veren in the group is three, so in one week from now it should be safe to mention that Perrin is ta’veren. On the other hand, neither Loial nor Moiraine explains how the ta’veren effect works – that it causes improbable events to happen in non-random ways – and Sylas doesn’t seem to have quite figured that out yet. I’m not sure at what point that becomes obvious, but certainly no later than Mat’s visit to Ailhuin Guenna’s house in The Dragon Reborn.
@fernandan (#78)
Really? I could have sworn that…. On closer reading, I guess the biggest reason I had for thinking Sylas had actually picked up on it was that he wrote the “perhaps” reference himself, as opposed to including it in a quote. I stand corrected. I will wait until next week, where I will re-post my comment whole (perhaps adding some things to make it clear what it’s referring to), hoping it will stay the colour it is that time. Thank you, and the Moderators, for second-guessing my judgement, as it was obviously in error.
However….
@Rombobjörn (#79)
If Sylas has picked up on something, there’s no real point in pointing it out to him in a comment, is there? To me, this goes back to what I wrote earlier about the nature of Spoilers: a Spoiler is something that, if it is revealed to the reader / watcher of a book or television series by someone who is further along in that series than aforementioned reader / watcher, spoils their enjoyment of what is yet to come in that series. So, the question then becomes: is revealing what I wrote last week, but doing so next week instead when there is actual confirmation to a (the, arguably) key part of it, going to increase Sylas’ enjoyment of the series, or decrease it? I happen to be fairly convinced it will increase his enjoyment — especially given the parallels he likes to draw to other Literature, and to Literature tropes — and that it would therefore not be a Spoiler by the very definition of the term. If anyone has a convincing reason for why it would decrease Sylas’ enjoyment instead of increasing it, I would love to hear/read it. I am always interested in being corrected for erroneous logic.
I also happen to be convinced that waiting until the point you mentioned would decrease Sylas’ enjoyment; at the very least of the chapters in between.